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we got to realize, we are 13 days away from a default. we are 13 days away from an indirect tax increase with americans with the interest rate skyrocket. government can't pay their bills. we have to get something done. if we can build this into the debt ceiling and make sure this is a starting point for the conversation, remember, this has revenues. it's got an approach that says defense spending has to take hits as well. i think it's a good starting point. >> the only way republicans are going to get anything that helps our country is to let the president know if he's willing to go past august 2nd, we are, too. we don't want to do that.

it will be disruptive. we won't default and we will pay seniors social security and medicare unless the president chooses not to. the resources are there. >> good morning, everyone. it's thursday, july 21st. welcome to "morning joe." we have mike barnicle and i'm glad you didn't wear it. we have a national affairs editor, john heilemann, hello. >> hi. >> peter alexander did the shuttle landing all by himself. >> 135 times they have done this thing and a perfect finish. it was nice. >> joe is here. barely. let's get to the news. everything okay? >> it's great. how are you doing? >> good. might want to show up a little earlier than ten seconds before the show. >> i was just in the back, back -- >> watching the shuttle. >> yeah, watching the shuttle

stuff. >> a charitable foundation for the kids. >> the orphans. >> doesn't even brush his hair. >> i was helping the orphans. >> maybe you hate the orphans. >> do you want to go back to sleep? his face looks like -- all right. it's just so unfair. >> what's unfair? >> nothing. it's fine. i'm going to get to the news. >> iced tea over here, please. >> lots to talk about today with the deadline just days away. i bet they'll be there on time. eric cantor might not. anyhow, maybe boehner. will he be late? are you late? >> yesterday's meetings with democratic leaders. later house republicans john boehner and eric cantor quote

productive. >> good. >> now, there's word of the idea of a $4 trillion deal that may be back on the table. >> really? >> president obama may be up to a short term hike in the debt ceiling. white house press secretary jay carney said any extension would be a few days, just enough time to allow more comprehensive deals to get pushed through congress. it's something they say the obama administration is working towards now. >> we are, as you know, supportive of the efforts by senators mcconnell and reid to craft a fallback provision solution that ensures that we take the necessary action on raising the debt ceiling. right now, there are multiple trains heading toward the station. we have to decide. some may continue up to the last moment. we have to be sure that fail-safe option is there as we

pursue doing something bigger. >> meanwhile, the so-called gang of six is working to sell their deficit plan to lawmakers. some liberal members are voicing concerns about the plans impact on social security and medicare and the way the plan was crafted. >> we are an anti-gang group. we are trying to suppress the growth of gangs. we think it is not healthy for washington. >> i think it's an insult to the congress that we have to go back to a gang of six, much less go to the senate for a solution to this problem. so, it's a very complicated issue. i, for one, can't see how we could go back home and tell our constituents we have no clue what six people have come up with and we should embrace it. >> the gang of six proposal

could face difficulties passing the house where republicans have the majority. democrats are against entitlement changes. there are a few problems there. as lawmakers race to reach a deal before the august 2nd deadline, "the new york times" reports wall street is working on a fallback plan to save the country. the times says companies are taking steps to reduce the risk of holding treasury bonds and making money. even if a deal is reached in washington, the market credibility already may be lost. that's -- isn't that the bottom line here in terms of trying to get terms of normalcy or things people can expect to get the economy back on track? why would a short term deal not add to the problems we are facing? i don't know. >> first of all, wall street does not think the united states is going to default or screw up.

>> okay. china, this past week announced they are going to be buying more u.s. securities. when asked why, they said because they are going to clean up their mess. their mess compared to europe's mess is so small we know this is going to get resolved in the end. if barack obama comes out and says, we are going to push this forward another two weeks, three weeks, four weeks. we'll let committee chairmen actually do their jobs and figure out the complexities of the bills instead of vomiting out like the stimulus package, then it will be a thoughtful, rational approach to it. markets, actually, if they know there's a big deal behind it will be quite -- wouldn't they, john heilemann? >> i think so. the time is tough right now. listen to harry reid and mitch mcconnell who know how the senate works and how long it

takes to do the following things, to reform medicare and tax reform. they are things that typically can take many months to get done. >> isn't it a surprise? it wasn't a surprise the show started at 6:00 a.m. on the east coast. it's no surprise we have a deadline. >> to build the legislation is not something that can happen in the span of four or five days. you can't. the key issue is what obama will be wanting to see is the outlines of a deal where he has a good assurance the outlines of the deal can get past once the meat is put on the bones. if that's the case and the markets see that, everything will be fine. whether it's a few days extension or a couple weeks, it's going to take a lot to get to that point. there's no consensus on the house side among house republicans in favor of what the

gang of six is doing. as we saw in the film, the video, house democrats on the liberal side, can tank rouse at the moment. >> do you not want the president to push forward? >> it's frustrating. it's got to be frustrating for citizens of this country, not able -- i mean months and months and months ago, they could have worked on this. no. >> they couldn't do it. >> there are elements that you could insert into a monty python film. what we just saw on tv, moments ago, saying, you know, go home and tell their constituents as to what is in this proposal made by the gang of six. they are not going to do this. these are the same people who passed a billion dollar bail out plan based on three pages given to them. now, they are saying we are not

going to tell people we have no idea. >> they had no idea on that. then none of them had no idea on what they voted for in the $700 billion stimulus plan or $800 billion. none of them read it. i'm telling you, you are not going reform social security, medicare, the tax system in two weeks. it's chaos. >> it's not possible. you have to get the cbo to score it. it's going to take -- it doesn't happen in two days. it's a complex model. it's going to be days just to get the score. >> a point made earlier in the week, americans at home who don't get the minutae, the folks in congress and the president should be responding to market crises. it feels like they are the ones creating it. >> yes. >> you know, if the president --

he made a very good move yesterday suggesting he would be willing to push the deadline out and give congress more time to figure this out. look at all the polls, john heilemann and americans want a deal. they want this white house to work with this congress. if he's -- he said before, there's no way he's going to be open to extending this negotiating. you know what? it's the rational reasonable thing to do. in the end, it makes him look good to bend over as much as possible to try to make this work. >> look, the president has, in this case, this is literally the first major legislative item in barack obama's presidency where he's winning politically. the way he's winning is looking like the reasonable guy. the one who is most -- his only priority is saving the american financial system and the economy. that's the horse he's riding.

the reasonableness horse. joe, to your point, looking reasonable always helps obama in these circumstances, making everyone else look intransigent. good for him, politically. >> good for america. >> i have a president whose feet aren't in cement and is actually going to push the deadline out a little bit and allow reasonable people to sit down together and make it work. >> this is on taxes. we have a really interesting must read on. including glover nor quest saying the bush tax cuts -- >> you are kind of depressing, at least to me. i was rereading, over the weekend, portions of william manchester's great history of this country, the glory and the dream. there's a large section in it about what this country, what

the people of this country did immediately after december 7th, 1941. the things we sacrificed. the things we gave up automatically. no questions asked. think of all of that in our history and then think of charlie rangel and a handful of democrats saying you can't touch social security or medicare. we have to touch social security and we have to touch medicare. we have to do it as a nation. are we still capable of doing it as a nation, the way we were capable of a short time ago? >> some house republicans saying you can't close tax loopholes or raise additional revenue? it's not going to get it. >> no, it's not. >> we have to close the tax loopholes, raise revenue, cut the growth of medicare, medicaid, social security. we have to cut pentagon

spending, dramatically. eventually, we have to find a president who knows how to get us out of afghanistan and iraq. >> the republicans we have on the show say they are open to the loophole cuts. are they? >> tom coburn is. he provides a lot of cover. >> i was wondering what mike was quoting. how many pages can you get read in the seventh inning stretch? >> it's in between innings. it's the entire game. >> the tough thing for president obama, he's going to say he will extend the deadline, if it looks like a deal is coming together. this, to me, is the difficult part. if all he had to deal with was the senate, i have no doubt in the next week you would have a deal that would work. the house is difficult. he's going to need to know from nancy pelosi and john boehner

the votes are in place. today, not even close to that. >> you will lose 100, maybe 120 republicans right out. if you get most of the democratic caucus and boehner pulls in 100 republicans, it gets done. it's up to the democrats. i think boehner can get 100 republicans. can pelosi get 120 democrats? >> right. okay. we are going to get to bill karins on the heat in a minute. before we go, new developments in the hacking scandal involving rupert murdock. it may be disclosed as news international says it will release the details of the dealings with the law firm that has e-mails documenting company's wrong doing. here in the u.s., the justice department is launching an investigation into news corp.

conduct to see if there were efforts to hack the voice mails of 9/11 victims. that would be -- that would be it. i'm sorry. >> i got a call from piers morgan yesterday. >> yeah? >> he wants us to go on his show. >> oh, my goodness. >> i would love to do it. i don't know if phil will let me go to cnn. >> what would be the date? >> who takes it probe. >> it could be an awkward conversation. >> he's written so much in his book, there's a wealth of information. he called in on wolf blitzer's show two days ago yelling at a member of parliament. so maybe he wanted to yell at me. i find his quotes fascinating and what happened going back to

2002. certain swedish sex scandal that his paper exposed by hacking. maybe he wasn't involved in it. there are a lot of questions not answered. let's face it. they are not pursued because he's cnns employee and fox, of course is bearing this entire story. >> they won't talk about it. when they do, it's in the most interesting terms. >> none of parliament that we witne witnessed, your favorite, none of that was on. >> how does that happen? >> regardless, it's a news story, even for short stints of it. >> of course it's a news story. it's like us not showing highlights of the boston red sox when they lose. >> never mind. >> well -- >> you know, the thing is, i don't know what the truth is about piers morgan. i'm surprised nobody is asking

questions. >> we would. >> on the interview he said i didn't say i knew of it or say that i was doing it. >> there's a lot of other stuff. >> this is how it's done, but don't shoot it? seriously. >> asking what happened in 2002. a lot of the other things he did there. i'm saying he's part of the story. i don't know the guy. i don't like him. i don't dislike him. i would like to ask why he's an arsenal fan. i don't get that. >> okay. >> i'm curious. curious joe. >> coming up from the so-called gang of six, senator conrad will join us and carl bernstein. politico's top stories of the morning after the break. first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> good morning. moments ago, the end of an era.

"atlantis" came down. perfect landing. no issues on the reentry. no more shuttle take offs or landings as "atlantis" came to a slow glide on the runway at kennedy space center. let's talk about the weather forecast. it's hit for the east coast. the humidity has been cranked up overnight. heat warnings from the carolinas from the raleigh area northwards from virginia to d.c., boston, philly. it feels like we are in the 80s, some cases the 90s. later on today, near 100 from raleigh to d.c., new york, st. louis, kansas city. this is the peak of the heat wave today. it gets better by sunday. you are watching "morning joe," brewed by starbucks. every day, all around the world,

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i would like to apologize again for the unacceptable treatment you have received. >> his paper spied. they are apologizing. >> he looks like somebody came across him with a cricket bat. >> a cricket bat. i have to think outside the pie. how about what else can we hit him with? how about a shot to the nuts with a soccer ball? >> let's take a look at the morning headlines.

>> everybody loves a clip like that. >> mika keeps laughing. >> i love that. >> usa today, a story we were just talking about, wall street is banking on a debt ceiling deal. some analysts are warning they could be caught off guard as in 2008 when congress rejected a bail outplan. the dow plunged 700 points on the vote, the largest one-day drop, ever. wall street journal nicolas sar merkle are having a heated debate. stores are teaming up with michelle obama.

it's part of the first lady's signature effort to combat childhood obesity. >> that's serious. that's good. >> they sent me to detroit to do a story. >> i am so glad you do that. it's a serious issue trying to get children across the country to eat well. they should have access. >> you have a lot of fluffer there. the marshmallow container. >> i think it's one of the seven superfoods. the blueberries, almonds, fluffer, you have your spinach, i think. you have your snickers. >> i'm not going help you all out. stupid. >> you have snickers, captain crunch with crunch berries. >> i love that.

>> you have your cereal. >> cocoa puffs? >> no, too much sugar in that. >> i'm going to politico. chief white house correspondent for politico. mike, good morning. >> don't forget pizza with three food groups. >> exactly. >> i think it's got more than three, in all due respect. >> carbs, protein and vegetables. >> politico is reporting washington lobbyists just aren't doing that well this year. what's going on? >> problem on k street. >> they are doing less well. as you know, washington ink does fine. people who live here from the reality out in the country. one element of it is feeling the pinch. lobbyists have less work because congress is doing less.

the president and capitol hill get wrapped up in the spending agreement earlier when we had the government shutdown. the cliff hanger over the debt. it affects specific businesses and industries. it's making less work. one top firm tells us that flat is the new up. lobbying firms are trying to stay the same as companies cut back because of the slowed machinery and because of worries about the economy in general. the wall street journal increasing layoffs. more people looking ahead, worried about the double dip. >> it continues to look that way. politico has the story about mike bloomberg's organization committing a large sum of money to move the nation toward cleaner energy.

mike bloomburg going the route of pickens, the bloomberg plan? >> this is a scoop for you. he's going to announce $50 million to the sierra club for the program to inform people about coal and to do this, mayor mike is going to be out on the potomac river on a barge with the coal fired power plant in the back to talk about the need for cleaner energy. he is focusing on cleaner energy climate. >> mike allen, thank you very much. coming up, michele bachmann offers up a doctors -- this is ridiculous, sexism. completely. completely. she shouldn't have had to say anything. she shouldn't have said

anything. whatever idiots brought it up should be ashamed of themselves. anyhow, more "morning joe" when we come back. my contacts are so annoying. i can't wait to take 'em out. [ male announcer ] know the feeling? try acuvue® oasys brand contact lenses with hydraclear® plus for exceptional comfort. it feels like it disappeared on my eye! [ male announcer ] discover why it's the brand eye doctors trust most for comfort. acuvue® oasys brand.

welcome back to "morning joe." it's just like the city has a sweater on. it's so hot. all right, this story, i -- i -- >> what? would you like me to read it for you? >> i kind of have a headache, i don't think i can do it. >> michele bachmann complaining about her chronic migraine headaches and the concerns about her ability to run for the white house. she released a statement from her physician. this is what it said. don't run for president. no, wait a minute. this is the doctors note. you are overall in good health. your migraines occur infreak wently. you know the factors that trigger it and now what to

avoid. >> tim pawlenty questioned her health. he said this, quote, all of the candidates, i think, are going to be able to have to demonstrate they can do the job all of the time. a few hours later, after pawlenty's wife talked to him, probably. he walked back his comments on fox news. >> i think it's a side show. i have observed her and never seen her have a medical condition or impairment that is a concern. >> the comments come as the minnesota governor trails bachmann by 10 percentage points by the latest washington post. bachmann came in third, romney led. mika -- >> thank you so much. i don't think i could have gotten through that. >> talk about why this story

affects you. >> i don't think they would have done it for a male candidate. it was sexism. it's like hillary clinton and the cleavage. why are we talking about this and bringing it up as an issue. >> it's a simple story. the initial story appeared on a conservative website. this was a calculated hit piece by one of michele bachmann's rivals. there's no question, this is what happened. this is a calculated leak to the daily caller. it's not a liberal media conspiracy. they took a shot at her. the republican establishment is terrified of her strength as it continues to grow. i'm not accusing pawlenty's people of doing this at all, but the fact he jumped on it and the way he did yesterday, at a

minimum points out exactly what the stakes are here. she could stop. if she beats pawlenty in iowa, his campaign could be over. >> she could embarrass romney in iowa. >> now they are embarrassing themselves by bringing this up as an issue. >> there may or may not be sexism going on here. >> any of the guys in the race suffered from migraine headaches, which a lot of people do and they know how to take care of it and medicate. it's not anything bizarre. it's a migraine headache. if anyone else had it, it wouldn't be a story. >> if a guy on a campaign trail got choked up and cried on a campaign trail it's good. if a woman does it, it's weak.

it's a sign of weakness because she takes medicine for migraines. >> i guess sometimes tearing up -- >> you know what i'm talking about. >> tearing up helps hillary clinton. >> we have come a long way, baby. please. this is pathetic, really. seriously, tim pawlenty, no offense. nice guy. >> you want to go through my purse? >> yeah. >> all right. listen. very understandable. coming up, the must read opinion pages. you are watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. [ male announcer ] this...is the network --

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this is a national weather service heat advisory. much of the united states is experiencing extremely high temperatures. while the heat wave persists, many municipalities will open cooling centers. also, i'll be shirtless. stay tuned for more bulletins from the national weather service. >> funny. time for the must read opinion pages at 41 past the hour. >> natural transition? >> yep. i'm going to read the first part of it. with a handful of exceptions every republican member of congress signed a pledge against increasing taxes. would allowing the bush tax cuts to expire as scheduled in 2012 violate that vow? we posed this question to grover

nor quis. no. he goes on to say this, too often in recent years it tax debate resembled a one-way ratchet. taxes go down, but never back up exception if a booming economy has revenue. the bush tax cuts were passed when enormous surpluses were in sight. there's no policy basis for insisting the tax rates are graved in stone and immune to change given the change circumstances as the norquist pledge, it's not a suicide attempt for reassessment. >> you know, i'm just going to say this right now. i think i have proven my rationality in the budget crisis talking about the closing of a billion dollar tax loophole. i have to say, look at every debt crisis, large or small in

modern american times from california to connecticut to new york to u.s. that the media's instinct immediately and always is tax, tax, tax, tax, tax. editorial boards, if you make spending cuts will find reasons to lacerate you and kick you and destroy you. if you talk about not raising taxes to force tougher cuts, you are mocked and ridiculed and told in the end, this has happened time and time again. you know, in connecticut, they were basically hailed as a conquering hero. he has such courage to raise taxes so much in connecticut that there wasn't much of a difference between connecticut, new jersey and new york. trace connecticut's economic activity since he was a hero to

all the editorial boards there and he instituted an income tax in that state and look at economic activity flat lining through the '90s and flat lining for the past ten years. i understand sometimes you have to raise taxes. but the spending in this country exploded at such obscene rates. it's not a 35% tax rate that has gotten us where we are. >> i understand what you are saying about the media. i think it's easy for the editorial boards to go after cuts. but the point here is that these guys, the republican party is so worried about the tea party and keeping it together they won't mend it all. >> i think a lot -- if you revoke the bush -- if you go back to normal tax standards,

it's not a break -- >> a lot of republicans, a lot of conservatives, i include myself in that category have seen it time and again where we have heard, when you raise taxes and we'll take care of cuts later. cuts are never taken care of. it's actually the easy thing to do, to raise taxes. >> it's not raising. >> the editorial boards are praise you. you will be seen as a respectable, responsible man about town. i mean -- i hear this constantly. when is the pressure going to come to make really tough cuts on the programs? i never see those editorials. >> one of the big problems with taxes, whether you raise them -- >> back to normal levels -- >> mike alluded to it in his segment. firms not hiring. the american taxpayer has no

lobbyist. every corporation, everything you can think of has a lobbyist in washington going up to the ways and means committee, getting semicolon put in the bill that helps them. our tax structure is absurd. how is it no one sat down -- hedge funds, they pay taxes at a capital gains rate, not an income tax rate. >> it's insane. >> it is nuts that no one sits down and reforms the entire system. >> it is nuts. >> i have to tell you, joe, the one place where i think you are a little off base. it's not hard to find editorial writers or op-ed columnists calling for entitlement reforms. it's not a hard thing to find. it's almost as received wisdom, conventional wisdom.

>> talking the approval. generally like "the new york times" then get a specific program. i guarantee you "the new york times" will slash and burn any politician for going after grandma. they will. >> as i say, i think there's a pretty well established cannon for the center. you get trashed for title reform entitlements right now. >> you will get -- i obviously have watched this very closely through the years. say, for instance, "the new york times" and social security. a commission in the early '90s talked about reforming social security. great idea. george w. bush in 2005, the second he started talking about reforming social security -- >> he didn't talk about reforming it. he talked privatizing it.

>> they criticized that part. they also started saying and what a lot of liberals are saying, social security is not the problem. we have no problem with social security. social security has been here for 75 years. no, it's already in the red. i guarantee you talk about tax cuts, you get absolutely savaged. there is a default here. would you not agree, there is a default position for most people in mainstream media in washington and new york to raise taxes? it's the first default. then not cut spending. >> there's something to that. yet, there's also something to the fact that right now, people are criticizing this republican. the complete -- doing anything about revenues. this is what it's about. actually, the news in that editorial, i'm stunned by it. grover says letting the bush tax

cuts expire doesn't qualify as a tax increase for him. that's like a news story. >> that's news. >> i was shocked to hear that. astonishing. >> all i'm saying is, trying to point out is if you are a conservative and you are going into a deal with a democratic president, before you even whisper the possibility of raising tax revenues, you want to see on the other side of the table, real entitlements. i don't think the president talked about it. >> show us the fine print is what you are saying. >> i don't think he has specifics. i think republicans are getting set up again. anyway. >> all right. we can talk about that more. who will reach a deal first, congress or the nfl. we are going to talk to a line backer about the latest on the lockout. that's next. [ male announcer ] walls can talk.

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joining us now, we have the free agent linebacker cincinnati bangles, jones. he's got a new book "the sportsman." it's good to see you. thanks for coming in. >> good to see you. >> a lot going on now. >> players could vote as early as today.

is that done? what is the update? >> i'm not a lawyer. you have to wait until the pen hits the pad and the ink is dry for anything to go down. there's a lot of paperwork to go through and everybody is paid by the hour. we'll see what happens. >> that was a careful answer. very careful. >> you feel confident you are playing in september? >> america needs football, loves football. football will happen. it's just when it gets finalized. >> let's talk about the book. why did you write it? >> i think everybody comes to a point where they want to look and break down what's happened in their lives. for the last 33 years i have been doing something different, if you will. the last three years on the road travelin traveling and playing football. it's precarious balancing two things at the same time. >> what are the unexpected

lessons you came upon? >> every country i went to was very, very different. people were different. food was different. the sport was different. the challenge was that much different. it's like every day life when you wake up and walk down the street. >> back up a little bit. explain the show for people who haven't seen it before so they understand the crazy world you live in. >> it's me waking up every morning, going to practice a sport i have never done before. it should have been dhani gets beat up around the world or tries to stay out of trouble around the world. it's using my sport into a new culture. it was like if you were to go to ireland and meet with a morning host and they were to give you their perspective of ireland. >> right. >> it's the same type of thing.

>> what is hurling in ireland aside from drinking whiskey? >> it's similar to field hockey. take a field hockey stick, mash it down, make it flat, then a lacrosse perspective to bounce the ball and it it at the same time. it's like lacrosse in the sky. field hockey in the sky. >> wow. i have never heard of that. >> when you go in various professional locker rooms in all sports, you can see athletes hiding skills on the field, football, baseball, basketball. you see them in the locker room playing chess, checkers or ping-pong. the competition is intention. when you go overseas and to the different countries and participate in the games, did you want to win? >> you want to win all the time. competition is inherent to all of us. were all sitting at the table now thinking about what way we can compete with one another.

>> as the child of a wolverines -- >> the university of michigan. >> when is the university of michigan going to be back? >> right now. >> when you watch brady in the locker room talking to somebody -- >> he's excited. >> look at ohio state. >> we don't want to talk about that school. >> this is the year if you are michigan to talk about ohio state. >> no, no. we don't talk ohio state. we have that -- >> they are elegant. >> let me ask you quickly, i know you got in the middle of a rugby match. what is the difference between rugby and american football? >> rugby, they drink more than we do. it's a very physical sport. one of the major differences is that the rugby players stay on the field the entire time. in american football, we come off, rotate.

when playing rugby, no stopping at all. you don't have to worry about getting hit on the blind side, either. if you don't have the ball, you're not going to get hit. >> dhani jones, thank you very much. [ male announcer ] there's more than one of these abandoned racetracks in america today. automotive performance is gone. and all we have left are fallen leaves and broken dreams. oh. wait a second. that is a dodge durango. looks like american performance is doing just fine. ♪ carry on. ♪

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this is a hard day.

>> it's true. he has had the run of the planet. dmonon over all that he surveys. yesterday, july 19th, in the year of murdock, 2011 was the day that he had to accept that ultimately, he is responsible for the fiasco. >> ultimately, you are responsible for this whole fiasco? >> no. >> oh, how the mighty -- wait, what was that? >> you are not responsible? you are not responsible? >> the people i trusted to run and maybe the people they trusted. >> i can see how this is a humbling day for mr. murdock, a man of his stature is not accustomed to throwing people under something so lowly as a bus. >> welcome back to "morning

joe." joining the table, carl bernstein and contributing editor gabe sherman. it's kind of funny, what jon stewart said. >> he is funny. what's your point? >> it's kind of not funny, too. seriously. >> it's fascinating. are you doing the reporting? >> i have been. writing a series of web pieces. this is just an epic story. the amount of headlines every day coming out of this story. this, on a normal day would be, you know, a month long story. every headline would have a long shelf life. yet, they keep coming. to me, the next step is what does this mean for the future of news corp. and rupert murdock. who is going to step in if there's a management takeover. >> you talked in your last piece that i read how this seems

counter intuitive but it's good for roger ayles. >> for once, all the critics are not talking about fox. fox is not involved in this, as far as we know in the hacking saga. it's a legitimate business. what's going on with murdock's tabloid has nothing to do with fox news. >> explain how his enemy's within his family and news corp. are going up in flames now. that leaves ayles stronger. >> that's been roger's thing the whole time. james murdock stepping in as the heir is caught up. the politics are different. for roger, this means a corporate rival has been dragged into this total tabloid mess.

he doesn't have to worry about him. >> if the murdock family is weakened, roger is strengthened? >> he is if he can run his business the way he sees fit. the open question was, what would the murdock children do to roger's business if and when they took over for their father. you saw the quote in the new york times when he said fox news, i'm paraphrasing here, they destroyed the murdock name. now, that wing of the family doesn't seem to be any power. >> wow. >> wow. >> great grandson of sigmond who is behind the scene. >> it goes from sigmond freud to

news corp. >> let's continue the conversation with carl. >> there are new developments in the scandal. the full extent of the alleged cover up at the defungt news of the world. it will release the details of the dealings with a law firm that has e-mails documenting the company's wrong doing. here in the u.s., the justice department is launching an investigation into news corp. conduct looking to see if there were attempts to hack the voice mails of 9/11 victims. >> that's where the real problem comes. >> it's a very -- at this moment it's a stiff allegation. >> at this moment, there's a rival tabloid, the daily mirror. there's no -- >> no one in politics. >> of course we will investigate

because that's the kind of charge that is so hot they have to investigate. as of right now, it is really possible. >> let's talk about what's going on in london right now. yesterday parliament absolutely fascinating. we let it run for 30 to 45 minutes and could have kept watching. back and forth, you can see the politicians. you can see the police in the middle of it. you can see the media in the middle of it. you walk away realizing what most americans didn't realize before. rupert murdock owns england, lock, stock and barrel. >> you are the first person to articulate what the real story is here. one individual managed to capture the basic institutions in british life. the political system, the police, the media and the leadership of his newspapers and people who watch his television.

this has never happened in the history of english. similarly, his objective, if you want to make it really simple has been to establish a similar kind of hold, power. there have been great abuses in that exercise and power. now, we are finding out how much is by hook and how much by crook, whether the crook is in his name and how this institution works. this is about a great institutional breakdown on both sides of the atlantic and in the process, what we have seen is a maskerade. this is about criminality. this is about going to low in terms of getting the story at nothing else.

i'm talking now about the culture that existed at news of the world, which is murdock. >> not just the hacking. let me ask you, john heilemann. you lived there several years. you talked about how the culture is. everybody knows everybody and what they have done since they were 15 or 16. are you shocked that one man, rupert murdock was able to control basically all the levels of power in london in. >> no. >> he does, does he not? >> he's got a lot of levers. when i moved to london, 1991, rupert murdock existed in the media landscape, but there was no animus structure. people did not hate him or love him. moving to london and discovering this guy was a figure of such power and who brought out and

elicited it, you get to england and everybody there, this is 20 years ago, people recognized him as one of the three or four most powerful people in the country. as powerful as the prime minister. as much as he elicits some degree, there's hate for fox from people on the left, it's still nothing like in america. he is feared by some, beloved by others. he's a massive figure in english life, unlike anything projected in this country through fox. >> over here, you look at fox, by the way people who haven't looked at the numbers, fox news makes so much more money than all the newspapers combined. >> not even comparable. fox is responsible for nearly half of news corp. profits. news corp. is becoming a cable news company that happens to

public a newspaper. >> 1% of their holdings, they could get rid of except for the power. following up on john heilemann's point, in england, he is reviled. the right likes fox. if fox attacks you, you know what? for the most part, it doesn't stick or sting. it's split down the middle. in london, though, and in great britain, who reviles him? we are hearing tony blare, after he has labor meetings, gordon brown's wife had slumber parties with murdock's wife. >> hello. sleep, so to sleep, with rupert murdock. >> a great story is the

institution that brought down the allegations is the guardian newspaper. they have no skin in the game and go directly to the heart of the scandal and build facts and establish the case that this was a widespread culture of hacking. the politicians were on the sidelines. police on the sidelines. the newspaper, the media is the one who could crack it open. >> the collusion between all sides is not journalism. >> what you get now is a great irony. the murdock papers have used all kinds of witch hunting techniques to go after enemies, political op opposition and celebrities. he's become a witch hunt, not to say that there is plenty of

real, legitimate inquiry into the journalistic activities he is responsible for the culture and maybe some of the criminality as well. there's obviously a cover up that's been ongoing and now we are going to find out, gradually, what part of the cover up he and the people closest to him are responsible for and whether it's still ongoing until the point he testified the other day. >> is fox covering this story? >> they got early criticism. there's a moment where a talent said we should all just move on. they carried the hearings live. >> okay. >> yesterday? >> no, they carried rupert and james murdock hearing a couple days ago. >> i will say, the one thing about all of this, do not count murdock out. >> yeah. >> when i first moved here, at

that moment in 1991 they were on the brink of bankruptcy. in some ways, he is more of a mortal danger then. he had to sign kov vents with his bank. everyone said this is death for news corp. within three years he was in hong kong and expanding his global reach, became a bigger figure than he was two or three years earlier. they were this close to going under. their resilience, the murdock's resilience has been extraordinary over the years. at this moment, as vulnerable as he looks, i would not count it out. >> mika, yesterday, we had people on, new yorkers that know him very well. steve rattner, tina brown. talked to a few on the phone over the past week. none of them that know rupert believe he's going to step down.

you say he can't survive this and they laugh in your face. he'll survive this. >> we don't know where it's going to go. this is an institution that's been hardened. his stature, what you saw in the hearings is he is a person of stature. whatever the hell you say about him and the people who have gone after him come late to the game and at the same time, he is now lawyered up in terms of trying to isolate himself from the worst of this and the worst of this is a kind of paint that has to do with basic corruption. >> yeah. >> corruption and abusive power. on a scale that we have not seen in a long time. >> how do you take corruption

and power away from the name murdock? >> that is the big question. sure, you don't want to bet against murdock. at the same time, there's a train coming down the tracks. >> yeah. tons of bodies on the side. >> he's standing by the tracks. we don't know the outcome of this. >> what is the attitude inside fox and the new york post and other news corp. holdings in america? do they feel -- >> they are staying out of it. roger ailes is far, far away from this. he's keeping his head down and creating a lot of distance and space between himself and this circuit in london. >> they feel murdock is going to survive? >> i think there's a lot of things to john's point. this is a company that is always under fire. this is a ceo who plays by his own rules and they can get

themselves out of this. >> once it spreads to america, this is where the money is for him. this is where the profits are. this is where his business is now. england is for murdock. if he can keep -- if nothing spreads here and no wrong doing, he will still, i think, be able to survive. this is really where his business is now. as long as he doesn't get his license stripped or anything, i have to say, i think he will be running this company a year or two from now, unless we find out about the 9/11 fund. two sources of income revenue for this company. fox news and then what was the other? >> all of the tv properties and the film business. "avatar" made the company a being dollars. it's a movie production company that publishes a few newspapers.

>> not the fox news network but "american idol". >> we are missing a big point. we are talking an individual in this country, through the new york post, through the so-called journalistic standards at the low end of his empire changed american journalism as nobody else in our era. the gutter standards of tabloid journalism were brought to our journalistic future. it's part of this story. now, finally, we are looking at this 20 years after this current affair went on television. 20 something years after page six started and spread to other newspapers without the standards. is it true? has it been checked out?

is it in context? our culture changed because of rupert murdock. >> now that's engolfing him. is there an end in sight for the deficit in members of the gang of six. kent conrad will join us. next, an exclusive look at the cover of "time" magazine with managing editor. first, a look at the fireworks. >> we have a tie. dallas and washington, d.c. it feels like 88 degrees. the two warmest we have now. later on today, many locations will feel like 100 to 110 degrees outside. the forecast for today, we are expecting near 100 degree heat from southern new england to the carolinas including d.c. detroit, 100. it's rare for you. 100 where it's been 100 all summer long. oklahoma city is going to peak tomorrow. we get a break in the great

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many people were hoping for some brief allegation yesterday that could add to their conspiracy theory. i'm disappointed for them that they didn't get one. the music, if you like, once in awhile, it would be nice to hear responsibility. they recall every single conversation i have. you would be mad to try to pretend you do. >> england is awesome! that guy nailed it. remember when someone yelled, you lie! at our state of the union and everyone said what has become of offensive people. this is the prime minister of england down in the pits taking on commerce.

this is unbelievable! >> i do love it. we could use a little of that. we'll have what they're having. joining us now, "time" magazine rick stengel. i love it. >> women of america and the working men of america, it's chore work, eternal debate that men and women, husbands and wives about who does more. who does more at home? who does more at the workplace? it's statistics from the department of labor. men are actually doing more. >> they are. >> it's not so much a myth. the fact that men are doing more than they ever did. there's a rough equivalency of what they do at home and the office combined. >> we are talking parenting, too. >> women do a little more parenting and a little more at home.

men are spending more time at the office. they are doing three times as much as in the 1960s. a book from the '70s that categorized this, scholars discovered the writer using statistics from the 1960s. that was before women were in the workplace. basically, over the last 20 years, men have been doing more. i think women are doing less. it's not that women feel less stressed. our studies show that men are the ones who feel a greater work-life balance anxiety than women do. >> there you go. my husband -- also i wear this outfit when i'm cleaning. icon nekt with this. this is a very pretty cover. here is the thing, though. >> a man's work is never done. >> it is not. i think it's true. i look at mike barnicle.

a known fact about mike is he does probably more. >> you know, men are the biggest cry babies in the universe. >> you are not. >> we cannot keep up with the work women do on both fronts, in the workplace, at home. we couldn't do it. we couldn't do it. >> who are you sucking up to? >> your wife? >> my wife. >> men are not allowed to say, face it, we are doing more now. it's not like it used to be. i'm not saying that, either. >> oh, lord. >> it's a huge underlying fact, this phenomena. that is, one of the reasons real wages for families has not increased in 20 years is it's a two-worker family, both man and woman is now the norm, not the exception. we have a wholesale change in work culture. there are no real beneficiaries

of it. everybody is working harder for less. >> even harder for low income family than high income families. this is not an upper middle class issue. the equity is greater the lower your income. people have less choice. the father and mother are working two jobs. there's no slack that they have spare time. >> nannienannies. >> they are trying to get it done. i was at an event last night and i met with dozens of business owners and these women, it was like three out of four of them either were literally supporting their families. some supporting their families and the husbands were home taking care of the kids. it was interesting. the conversation was, it was the norm. it wasn't unusual anymore. everyone had a different situation. many women were the prime breadwinners or made more.

the balance falls into place. >> women have been doing it longer than men have, that work-life balancbalance. they are used to it. they understand. men can't figure out, do i stay at the office a half hour extra or go home early to feed the kids. it's a stressor in this whole thing. men don't have the guilt thing. women have a guilt gene, if they are working they worry about the kids. >> or if their husbands are doing more. it's taken me awhile to get used to this scenario. since i have been on this shift, my husband does more. for two years i stressed over it. no. you have to get over the guilt. women struggle with that. men don't have it. they just do it. they just do it. it's an incredible focus that helps at the negotiating table

and helps in terms of being sane. you are messy. you all are messy. >> there are certain things my wife won't let me near. >> i don't know how you do it. >> seriously. >> all the stuff we have. >> yes. you can say your back hurts. >> for years, i have been a total shelter magazine junkie. i read all the home decorating magazines and architectural digest. >> carl? >> it's true. i love design and architecture. it's another part of this. men are much more involved in the aesthetic life of the home than they used to be. >> i think they find it, in terms of -- >> choose the furniture. >> i think it's fun. >> it's a big screen.

>> the guilt gene. is that what you are talking about? >> men are discovering. i'm noticing this in conversations with women whose husbands do more. they enjoy. it's not the veil of you are a wimp anymore. >> one of the interesting things might be to follow the children of these working families. husband and wife working, see how the children react in their marriages ten to 15 years down the road. >> interesting. a great cover. >> a fatherly investment in children at home. >> yeah. >> michele bachmann story, is it sexism as i say it is? >> michael crowley who wrote about how rough the bachmann people were, i heard this morning, i think it is being treated differently than a male candidate. >> that would be sexism. >> at the same time, i remember a candidate i worked for, bill

bradley, when "the new york times" did a medical report about, you know, his health, this happens to candidates all the time. it's male candidates as well as female candidates. their health is something that gets discussed. >> you can't be saying that the migraine question is a sexist question. >> i think that the way it has been framed and kind of honed in on, absolutely. migraines, carl? really? >> i had migraines in my 20s, i don't have them anymore. >> you are okay? you can function? >> they have debilitated. if george bush had them that would have been terrible. michele bachman has been serving in congress. have you ever seen her slumped over? >> i think it would be as big a story if it were a male

candidate. i think we have an idea which candidate. if it were a male candidate, would you give it the same play? >> i -- >> yes or no? >> if a candidate was slumped over and couldn't function -- >> it's not a paragraph in the story. it's no evidence it's been debilitating to her or changed anything she has done. i think it's kind of a nonstarter. plus, the fact she dealt with it so resolutely and firmly makes it go away. >> if barack obama had been to the emergency room on several occasions for migraines, you don't think this would be a huge story during the last campaign? >> i am -- >> it would have been a story in the sense that if you have to go to the emergency room to get treatment. >> they have a baby.

seriously. >> i believe i read in a reliable publication. >> candidates are not able to go to e.r. now? >> all i'm saying is they are a legitimate political issue for men and women. something may be debilitating is something that ought to be considered and debated and looked at including medical. >> this is going to be interesting. i would like to see someone else cover this story. >> the migraine story? >> yeah. really. >> do the work-life balance of michele bachmann's life and how much her husband does. standing by in the green room, aidan quinn will be here. we'll be right back. [ p.a. announcer ] announcing america's favorite cereal

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welcome back to "morning joe." 38 past the hour. a new report confirms suspicions that u.s. money for projects in afghanistan may actually be

going to insurgents. the wall street journal reports according to an audit, u.s. aid is acceptable to fraud because of limited control. the u.s. has given more than 70 being dollars to security developments in 2002. lack of oversight and the failure to take certain measurements like cash serial numbers makes payments hard to track. top xanders in afghanistan and yking cia chief general david petraeus is an optimistic assessment to the american campaign calling the afghan war fragile and reversible. petraeus says now is the time to rekindle a once, trusting relationship. >> carl, you talked about debt and the money we have been

pouring into the wars over the past decade. we are spending $2 billion to $2.5 billion a week. >> it's never going to change. that's the real point. this is about pakistan, as we said on the show a number of times. how do we deal with pakistan and at the same time, get out of afghanistan except in terms of special forces or drones to represent our interest and chase down terrorists? meanwhile, you have the greatest tender box in the world, to save a nuclear pakistan with more than 100, probably twice as many with nuclear warheads that can fall into the hands of terrorists. >> the bottom line is, how do we deal with it? >> it's always pakistan is a basket case, a nuclear basket

case. stay in afghanistan. >> you don't. you don't. >> it's not going to work. that is washington's argument, mike barnicle. pakistan is stabilized. we have to keep having american troops killed in afghanistan. it doesn't add up. invading cambodia is the right move when you are going into vietnam. >> continuing argument and keep making it because less than 1% of american families and american people are serving in the military in afghanistan. >> there you go. >> back to the draft. >> untouched. >> we need a draft. >> we'll come back the dr. aidan quinn. [ male announcer ] members of the american postal workers union

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my father-in-law, there was a day they found your uncle. >> i don't have an uncle. >> your mother's younger brother. >> my mother didn't have any brothers. >> your mother's name was sarah. >> yes, her name was sarah. i'm sorry. i guess i didn't mean for you to come all this way for nothing. what is it you wanted to say? >> do you recognize her? >> that's impossible. >> wow. >> wow. >> that was a scene from "sarah's key" in which an american journalist uncovered a

key while discovering a nazi raid. great to have you here this morning. explain what we were watching in that scene. it's where the discovery takes place. take us up to the build-up. >> it's a little girl's story and she was my mother. i find out in that scene that my mother was, in fact, jewish and in the camps. i knew nothing about it. i thought it was a gentile. it's a shocking domino effect. then you go back and see what happened to her and why she had to keep it a secret. it's an extraordinary book and i think they have done a great job making it. she's a great actress. >> this is a book we were talking before, it sold, first of all, the author tried for three years to get it published. when it finally got published

you sold 5 million copies, 38 countries. it's made into this movie. what is it about this story that grabs so many people? >> the extremity of the drama of the situation, the round up of the jews, 13,000 jews in paris in 1942. the incredible human details of how she wove it into the modern story and this journalist going back and finding this out. it's just a beautifully written and wonderful book with great characters. it's a great story. >> sarah locks her brother, little boy up in a cupboard and promises to come back. >> she hides him. she that has key.

they send her journey trying to get out of the camp where they are held to get him back before, you know. it's an extraordinary story, yeah. >> unbelievable. >> obviously you read the book. >> yeah. >> what research do you do preparing for a role? how much history do you read? >> in general, quite a bit. this, i was hired last minute. i was reading the book on the plane on the way. >> wow. >> i was reading the book going okay. yes. yeah. so it was, you know, it was, you know, no money, three days work. i, you know, the story. >> the story is amazing. >> you prepared for the movie like we prepare for this tv show every day, except we don't read anything. let me ask you something. i'm sure there have been roles you sat and studies and devoured

and prepared saying i'm going to do this on set and that and calculate every move. your performance here, going in, jumping in, i bet there were parts you thought, wow, actually that worked better than things i have done before. >> you know, that's often true. even when you do all the research and that. you show up on the set and it's different than you envisioned. if you don't go with what happened then, you are dead in the water. i don't know how you guys to it every day. we have the script. you guys do it every day. >> ambiance. >> we start with the a. >> sometimes it's just natural as opposed to thinking about the sort of technical side of acting? >> yes, absolutely. >> is this one that -- i was riveted by watching that. >> yeah.

>> and the story is, i have a hard time -- >> yes, it's an extraordinary story. i mean, i hate to say, you know, there seems to be a great holocaust movie every three years or something. this is not just a holocaust movie, but the extremity of that brings out incredible drama. this is much more layered and deals with modern times as well. >> why does the mother, sarah, move forward and have to live with the hell that she's had to live with since 1942 and not tell her son? not tell her other family members? >> i think it becomes the unspeakable thing, the guilt, the overriding guilt and it just, she cannot deal with it. she has to shut it down. much the way france shut down their involvement on this as a

country. >> now you are on to something interesting. >> this is a country that completely denied their involvement. up -- the french police rounded up. and now there were hundreds of camps. i didn't know all this. >> inside of france. >> yes! >> there's great book coming out this fall about the history of antisemitism in the ancient world and modern world. i've been privileged enough to be reading the galleys of it. and when you see the continuum in history of antisemitism, and you wonder, how can this happen? and you begin to understand, a little bit, how people are always looking for "the other," somebody different. >> we grow up hearing about the french resistance. that's what we're taught in schools. >> they were the minority. >> the heroic french resistance.

>> it was de gall and a few other guys. >> in order to keep power and keep the germans happy and they had a quota. on this day in 1942 they went over the quota. i think the quota was 10,000, and they ran -- >> it was interesting not having paris bombed so it could remain a beautiful city instead of saving lives. there was greater interest in the physicality of saving the city than saving hundreds of thousands. >> aidan, we can't wait to see this. i apologize that you had to work with harvey in this. but you know, he's very zen. >> he is. >> he just sits back and says, "the river shall run where the river shall run." >> doesn't give you any guidance. >> no really, for this type of film -- >> no better man. >> it is a blessing to have harvey on your side. >> very happy to have harvey with us with this film.

yes, he's the best. >> first person that's ever said it is a blessing. >> we love harvey. you know we're joking. >> the maitre d' is the other one. >> aidan quinn, thank you. the movie is "sarah's key." the movie opens tomorrow in limited release. we'll be right back. look for it. boy, i'm glad we got aflac huh. aflac! oh, i've just got major medical...

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who's a sports fan? >> um -- well, okay. there's some guy named t-great, tiger woods, firing his long-time caddie steve williams. >> awful! >> 12 years they were together. tiger wins 72 times worldwide, 13 majors. this is what he writes on website. i want to express my deepest gratitude for stevie for all his help but i think it's time for what we call "a change." >> see ya. >> by the way, one of the stats that was most staggering over the course of time steve williams has made more than $4 million working with tiger. he would be 220th, someone wrote, overall on golf's all-time money list as a caddie -- not evening playing. >> tiger woods is not a good guy. not a good guy. >> he hasn't won a tournament in a while. i hope the next guy gets a

salary, not a cut. because he may not make a whole lot of money these days. getting to baseball, we'll start with the white sox. first in the sixth, down the left field line. alex gordon, rookie, great sliding catch. sox up 1-0 in the eighth. watch this. a foul off the pitch. the skipper not paying attention in the dugout. it goes off his face. >> ow! >> as soon as he turned. that is not pleasant. put some ice on it. he's been hit in the plate, now in the hugout. this one goes extra innings. two outs. your kansas city royals tack up a 2-1 victory. >> how did the red sox do? >> that happened to larry loquino last year. he's fine.

>> this guy is on fire. >> after taking last year off. >> you know, had he a splinter in april in his little pinkie. >> it was an ingrown toenail. >> temperature about 103 degrees on the field. red sox win, 4-0. >> that's amazing. >> fabulous zblimpb! >> hey, has anybody said to you, "it's time for a change"? >> ask me that question. >> you give me $4 million, i'll take a change. >> has there ever been like any talk -- i don't know, i'm just curious. anybody talk about tiger possibly being on the juice? >> they did. >> no, he uses this massage

stuff from japan. >> that was the concern of the whole scandal that that would come out. >> you look at hot golfer used to be and what he is now? and his cranium size? i'm just asking. a vacation on a budget with expedia. make it work. booking a flight by itself is an uh-oh. see if we can "stitch" together a better deal. that's a hint, antoine. ooh! see what anandra did? booking your flight and hotel at the same time gets you prices hotels and airlines won't let expedia show separately. book it. major wow factor! where you book matters. expedia.

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we are 13 days away from a default. we are 13 days away from a tax increase for americans. we need to get something done. if we can build this into processing the debt ceiling, this ought to be at least a starting point for the conversation. remember this has got revenues, it's got an approach that says defense spending has to take its hits as well as just hitting domestic spending. i think it is a good starting point. >> the only way republicans are going to get anything that helps our country is to let the president know if he's willing to go past august 2nd, we are, too. and we don't want to do that. it will be disrupted but we won't default an we will pay seniors social security and medicare unless the president just chooses not to because the resources are there. >> good morning. it is 8:00 on the east coast as

you take a live steamy look at new york city. back with us on set. we have mike barnicle, peter alexander and john heilemann. >> now there's word of an idea of the $4 trillion deal that may be back on the table. >> really! it comes ahead reports of pr may be up into a short term hike in the debt ceiling. that's the president moving a good bit. white house press secretary jay carney said any extension would be "a few days," just enough time to allow more comprehensive deals to get pushed through congress. something that carney says obama administration is working towards now. >> we are, as you know, supportive of the efforts by senators mcconnell and reid to craft a fall-back provision, solution, that ensures that we take the necessary action on raising the debt ceiling. right now there are multiple trains heading for the station. we have to decide and some of them may continue up to the last

moment because we need to be sure that that failsafe option is there, even as we pursue aggressively the possibility of doing something bigger. >> meanwhile, the so-called gang of six is working to sell their plan to house lawmakers in a bid to shore up support. but some liberal members of the chamber are voicing concerns about the plan's impact on social security and medicare and the way in which the plan was crafted. >> we are an anti-gang group. we are trying to suppress the growth of gangs. we believe they're not healthy. >> i think it's an insult to congress that we have to go back to the gang of six, much less go through the senate for a solution to this problem. so it is a very complicated issue. i, for one, can't see how we can possibly go back home and tell

our constituents that we have no clue what six people have come up with and the president apparently, to some extent, has embraced it. >> the gang of six's proposal could face difficulties passing the house where republicans have the majority and are signaling their opposition to new revenues while democrats are against entitlement changes. there are those few problems there. as lawmakers race to reach a deal before the august 2nd deadline, "the new york times" reports today that wall street is working on a fallback plan to save the country from a default on its debt. the "times" says companies are taking steps to reduce the risk of holding treasury bonds and finding ways to make money from the turmoil. many say even if a deal is reached in washington, the united states' market credibility already may be lost. isn't that the bottom line here in terms of trying to get some sort of normalcy or at least people can expect to get the

economy back on track. why would a short-term deal not add to the problems that we're facing? i don't know. >> first of all, wall street at the end of the day does not think that the united states is going to default, that they're going to screw up. china just this past week announced they're going to be buying more u.s. securities. when asked why, they said because they're going to clean up their mess and their mess, compared to europe's mess, is so small that we know this is going to get resolved in the end. if barack obama comes out and says we're going to push this forward another two weeks, three weeks, four weeks -- so we will let committee chairmen actually do their jobs and figure out the complexities of these bills, instead of just vomiting out like the stimulus package. i think actually if they know there's a good deal behind it, they would be quite cheered. wouldn't this? >> i think so. the time issue is just so tough

right now. you listen to people like harry reid and mitch mcconnell who know how the senate works and understand how long it takes to do the following things, to reform medicare, to do major tax reform. these are things that typically taken individually can take many months. >> this is not a surprise that we have an august 2nd deadline. >> i agree. i mean you could say whatever you want to say about how long it's taken us to get here. to actually build this legislation is not something that can happen in the span of four, five days. you just can't affect that much of the american economy. so i think the key issue is what obama will be wanting to see that the outlines of a deal where he has a good assurance that there's -- allies of the deal can get past once the meat is put on the bones. if that is the case and the markets see that, everything will be fine. pass it, whether it is a few days' extension, a couple weeks extension but it is going to take a lot to get to that point given the fractiousness on the

house side, especially among house republicans, had favor of what the gang of six is doing. even as we saw in the video, house democrats on the liberal side equally cantankerous at the moment. >> do you not want the president to push forward any -- >> no. just sort of it is frustrating. it's got to be frustrating for citizens of this country watching these guys in washington, not able -- i mean months and months and months ago they could have worked on this but no. >> they didn't do it. >> there are elements of this that you could insert into a monty python film. one of those elements being charlie rangel who we just saw on tv moments ago saying that one thing they're not going to do is go home and tell their constituents that they have "no clue" as to what is in this proposal made by the gang of six, they're not going to do this. these are the same people who passed a billion dollar bailout plan based on three pages given

them by hank paulson two years ago. now they're saying we're not going to go tell people we have no clue. >> they had no idea on that and then none of them had any idea what they voted for on the $700 billion stimulus plan, $800 billion stimulus plan. none of them read it. they all admitted they didn't read it. >> now they want to read this word for word? please! >> i'm telling you -- >> whatever. >> -- reform social security, medicare -- the tax system in two weeks. >> i know. >> it is just chaos. >> you have to get the cbo to score the thing. that's going to take -- that's not something that happens in two days. that's a complex econometric problem that takes days to be scored. >> americans at home who don't get the minutia need to understand the folks in congress and the president should be responding to market crises, and in this case it feels like they're the ones creating it. i think that's a lot of frustration for folks at home.

>> really is. but i think the president made a very good move yesterday suggesting that he would be willing to push the deadline out and give congress more time to figure this out. you look at all the polls, john heilemann, and americans want a deal. they want this white house to work with this congress, and if -- as he said before, there's no way he's going to be open to extending this negotiating. you know what? it's the rational, reasonable thing to do and i think, in the end, it makes him look good to bend over as much as possible to try to make this work. >> look. the president has in this case -- this is literally the first major legislative item of barack obama's presidency where he has been winning politically and the way he's been winning politically is by looking like the reasonable guy, the one who

is willing to -- his whole priority is saving the american financial system an american economy. and so, that's the horse he's riding, the reasonableness horse. and joe, to your point, looking reasonable always helps obama in these political circumstances and making everybody else look be intransigent, him being the most grown-up person in the world. good for him. >> look at this "washington post" poll. >> man, i think good for america that they have a president whose feet aren't in cement and is going to actually push the deadline out a little bit and allow reasonable people to sit down together -- >> the first numbers you just saw were the president's approval ratings on the deficit. this is on taxes. >> you know what's kind of depressing? at least to me. i was re-reading over the weekend portions of william manchester's great history of the country, "the glory of the dream," an there's this large section in it about what this

country, what the people of this country, did immediately after december 7th, 1941, the onset of world war ii, the things that we sacrificed, the things that we gave up automatically, no questions asked. and you think of all of that in our history. and then you think of charlie rangel and a handful of democrats saying you can't touch social security, you can't touch medicare. well, we have to touch social security and we have to touch medicare and we have to do it as a nation. are we still capable of doing it as a nation the way we were capable of doing things in a relatively short period of time ago? >> and then on the other side, some house republicans are saying you can't close tax loopholes. you can't raise any additional revenue. that's just not going to get it. >> no, it's not. >> it's not going to get it on both sides. we're going to have to close the tax loopholes, we're going to have to raise revenue, cut the

slo explosive rate of social security and medicare and eventually find a president who knows how to get us out of afghanistan and iraq. >> the republicans that we've had on the show have always said they're open to the loophole cuts. but are they? >> some are. tom coburn certainly is. and tom coburn is real conservative. he provides an awful lot of cover. >> i was just wondering, how many pages can you get read in the seventh inning stretch, mike? that's my question. >> it's in between innings. it's through the entire game. >> that's commercial breaks throughout. >> look. the tough thing for president obama, he's going to say that he will extend the deadline if it looks like a deal is coming together. this to me though is, this is the difficult part. if all he had to deal with is the senate, i don't have any doubt that in the fex wenext we would have outlines after deal that would work. the house is just really difficult and he's going to need to know from nancy pelosi and john boehner that the votes are basically in place and as of today, not even close to that on

the gang of six plan. >> you lose 100, maybe 120 republicans right out of the bat. but if you quite most of the democratic caucus and boehner can pull in 100 republicans, it gets done. it's up to the democrats. i think boehner can get 100 republicans. >> maybe. maybe. >> can nancy pelosi get 120 democrats? >> okay. we're going to get to bill karins on the heat in just a minute. but first before we go, there are new developments in the hacking scandal involving rupert murdoch's media empire. news international reportedly says it will release its dealings with the law firm that allegedly has e-mails documenting the company's wrongdoing. coming up from the gang of six, we'll bring in the chairman of the senate budget committee, senator kent circle of

protection. reverend jim wallis who was in that meeting will join us to explain. but first here's bill karins with a check on the forecast. good thursday morning, everyone. early this morning if you're just joining us, a nice safe landing but a sad one, too. this was the last shuttle flight and the last shuttle landing that you'll ever see as "atlantis" touched down just about 6:00 a.m. east coast time. picture-perfect weather conditions and it was just a beautiful landing and everyone's back home safely. as far as the forecast, it's hot. bottom line. from coast to coast, we've been dealing with very warm conditions exception being the northwest. today the hottest weather moves into the east. d.c., 100. raleigh, 102. also 100 from dallas all the way to kansas city. that's not going to get any better. friday looks like probably the peak of the heat around d.c. potential? 103. that would be something to see. that's possibly tomorrow. i love that my daughter's part fish.

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we need to get a deficit in the longer term but that should not lead to serious reductions the rest of the year. teachers and firefighters and public works employees and police officers need more money. we're now spending well over $120 billion a year in iraq an afghanistan. i was never tore going to iraq in the first place. i want to bring that money home. we're not creating jobs with that money. i would take the money back from iraq an afghanistan, spend it at home on those kinds of programs within the context of a ten-year deficit reduction.

i injoining us now from capi hill, senator kent conrad from the so-called gang of six. how is it going? >> going pretty well. >> yeah? are we any closer to a deal? is the gang of six going to make it happen? >> i think we made a contribution already. obviously the forces for the status quo are fully irate against us. they're saying don't do anything. that's not a viable position given the fact we're borrowing 41 cents of every dollar we spend and our gross debt is now 100% of the size of our economy. so those who are saying don't touch medicare, don't touch social security, don't touch revenue, how are you going to

solve this problem if you don't cut spending and raise revenue. the hard reality is the revenue of this country as a share of our national income is the lowest it has been in 60 years. spending as a share of our national income is the highest it's been in 60 years. the group of six, three democrats, three republicans, after five months of negotiation, have come together around a plan. it is a compromise and both sides had to give in order to produce a plan that will reduce the debt from what it would otherwise be by over $4 trillion. every economist has told us that's what we need to do. >> we're looking at the basics of the plan. don't know if you'll get a lot of disagreement. how do you make it happen in washington? we're still hearing that especially republicans are not bending on the revenue raising

side of this. we're hearing that the white house democrats are not putting out the fine print so we may see what kind of entitlement cuts they're considering cutting. how can your group help getting these two together? >> i think we can and i think we already have. we had a meeting with nearly 50 senators on monday morning. it was really quite a remarkable outpouring. senator after senator, republican and democrat, stood up after we briefed them and said "we're with you." so that's the beginning, but it is going to take a lot more education, a lot more explanation to help people understand how this would work in detail. and you know, at the end of the day, we're all going to have to do things we'd prefer in a perfect world not to have to do but i look back to the basic fact, we are borrowing 41 cents of every dollar we spend. that's can't continue. >> mr. chairman, so obviously we

can't get all of this done by august the 2nd. have you recommended, and have the senators in charge of this recommended the president give you another two weeks or another month so this can run through the proper committees, so people can take a look at it? we don't rush into a document that has a lot of unintended consequences? >> very good question. our proposal is a two-step proposal. first step is the down payment, $500 billion in savings, revenue and spending. and then a second process that would take about six months. you're quite right, you're not going to reform the entire tax code in a few of three weeks. that's going to take months, as you know, joe. is go going to take time. we also give the committees assignmen assignments. how much money each has to save and if any committee fails to do

that, we have a failsafe process where five democrats and five republicans can come in around the plan to fill in for any committee that doesn't meet its assignment. we tried to think this through very carefully and provide a balanced approach, one that does have revenue, although congressional budget office against current law scores it as a tax cut. what we have done is lower rates, broaden the base to give a competitive advantage to our economy in a highly competitive world. also cut spending and, yes, reform entitlements. >> mike barnicle. >> senator, you indicated you met with 50 senators on monday. you know what is going on across the hill there in the house of representatives. what's your best bet tooking toward august 2nd as to what happens? >> i've always believed there will be first a shorter term

extension. i would prefer one that's perhaps six months in duration so that you start the process, you begin with a down payment. then you have time for the committees of congress to do their work to come back with a fuller package. that's my own view of how this should work. and i think it's more in tune with the realities of the magnitude of the task. the tax code is not going to be reformed in a matter of weeks. that is going to take months and months of work. >> the magnitude of the task. and again, with reference to what's going on in the house, speaker boehner, majority leader cantor, can you talk about the terms of collegiality between 1992 and 1993 and today? >> there's been marked deterioration, no question about

that. when i first came here, there were sharp disagreements but people understood that you could disagree without being disagreeable. one of the good experiences in the group of six has been three democrats, three republicans, we've spent hundreds of hours together and there hasn't been an unkind word between us. there have been raised voices at times, but it's been a really positive experience. both sides had to give ground. and i shouldn't say just two sides because there are six of us that cover a wide range of philosophical viewpoints. the one thing we've been committed to is getting a solution and that's what i think the american people want to see at the end. look, it's fascinating to see the forces on the right, the forces on the left, the forces of the status quo joining against us and saying wildly,

various things. i've heard on the most liberal side people saying the republicans won in this negotiation. on the republican side and most conservative side saying, well, the democrats won. you know what? both can't be true. this is a compromise. >> senator, joe heilman here. two questions. one is, you've got three very constructive republicans in the gang of six. i'm sewcurious as to right now many other votes you get in the senate for the plan you're putting forward. the second question, is it helpful or harmful to have barack obama on your side behind this compromise? most things that barack obama touches are immediately deemed toxic by many republicans. so is it helpful for him to be a champion or is it harmful? >> well, i don't think he's been our champion. i think he's said there are many principles in our plan that are more in line with his thinking in the sense that this is a big plan. this isn't a plan that doesn't

deal with the debt. it's really, if you think about it, a remarkable concept that in the middle of a debt crisis we would extend the debt limit and not do anything about the debt. that just doesn't make much sense. the president, to his credit, has said we need a big plan and republicans and democrats in the house and the senate, i think those who are solution-oriented have recognized, that's a reality. so i think it is positive to have the president saying that. with respect to how many votes, i don't think you can tell until you get closer to a conclusion. i can tell you this. the support for this is about evenly divided thus far between republicans and democrats in the united states senate. and so far i think we've got about 40 people who have signed up to it. i think more will as they understand the really difficult cho cho choices facing the country.

doing nothing cannot be the answer. >> senator kent conrad, thank you very much. good luck. >> thank you, mr. chairman! greatly appreciate it. when we come back, religious leaders have their own concerns about the debt ceiling negotiations. we're going to talk to the reverend jim wallis about his meeting with the president when we come back. [ male announcer ] this...is the network -- a network of possibilities. in here, the planned combination of at&t and t-mobile would deliver our next generation mobile broadband experience to 55 million more americans, many in small towns and rural communities,

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welcome back to "morning joe." yesterday at the white house president obama met with the national christian leaders who were asking the president to protect funding for programs for the poor and hungry an the ongoing budget debate. with us now from washington, the president and chief executive officer of the sojourner's ministry, reverend jim wallis who met with the president yesterday. jim, thank you so much for being with us. what are some of the key programs that you believe need to be protected in these kinds of budget cuts? >> hi, joe, hi, mika. first, i've been watching you all report faithfully every day how a deal in this is such a moving target. we talked about with the

president, are there some principles which should guide us here? we said in this budget debate, low-income family and people and kids are really at risk and how that's brought all of us together. you don't bring the religious folks together easily, i must admit. this crisis brought us here and we said, we have to somehow protect the most vulnerable. we can't get our fiscal house in order -- which we must -- mostly on the backs of the poorest people. we talked about practical things that impact the lives of real people, in congregations, in communities. and it was a very good conversation. for about 40 minutes. >> and what were some of the programs you believe -- we've had this conversation before. that too often too many politicians go after domestic spending because that's the easy target. it is not entitlements. it's not defense. it's not politically unpopular because there are very few people that actually are lobbying for the interests of the poor. what are some of these programs

that need to be protected? >> well, to that point, you remember when you reported how obama had mentioned that the private jet deductions maybe should be looked at? within 48 hours, "the new york times" did a big story, "private jet industry mobile eizmobilize defending their interest. >> they always will. >> who's going to defend the mothers and infants program, the wic program, which has made strong minds and bodies for kids for a long, long time. who's going to defend basic health care for kids? k-street doesn't have any lobbyists defending poor people. this was liberals, catholics evangelica

evangelicals. it is malaria bed nets for kids and vaccinations. i want them to say every item of military spend something worth more than 10.4 million malaria bed nets they're about to cut. either say it outloud or don't cut it. >> mika, we've had this conversation before on set here with other religious leaders talking about how modern christian movement is changing especially among the young, even conservative ideological conservative young christians are what i would call matthew 25 christians, worrying about the poor, feeding the poor, clothing the naked, visiting people in hospitals and jails. again, this is a quiet revolution in the church that's happened over the past 20 years that i think a lot of people in mainstream media have not seen and jim is exactly right, conservatives, moderates, liberals are coming together under this concept. like you remember a couple of months ago when the president

and congress were bragging about cutting home heating oil assistance to the poor? >> yes. >> like that somehow made them legitimate on this issue? a lot of christian leaders were offenses by that kind of talk. >> i can understand it. i also think that these are the parts of the equation, if i may, reverend, that are easy to seek. i wonder how this conversation went yesterday and what you were able to bring to the table in terms of insight and in terms of morality when it comes to the other part of the equation, that is the fiscal health of this country down the road, the part you can't see, and not just your opinion on that, but how does that fit in to the equation as a guiding principle? >> it's crucial, mika. ive agot ive's got an 8-year-old and 12-year-old and i don't want to saddle them with huge debt down the road. we said mr. president, we're committed to fiscal health and getting our house in order. so reducing the deficit is a

moral issue. it really is. we said that. but how do you it is also a moral issue. as joe just pointed out, there are choices here. literally, joe, it's $2.5 billion to cut home heating oil for low-income families, or exact same amount, $2.5 billion for subsidies for offshore drilling for oil companies. those are the choices we're making. or $8.5 billion we're going to cut for low-income housing versus $8.4 billion for deductions on second vacation homes. these are choices we're making. joe's right about the matthew 25 christians. joe, the text came up yesterday in the roosevelt room. the president said, we can't let the shared sackfied be borne mostly by the least of these. when he said "the least of these," we all knew that he knew matthew 25 where jesus said, as you have done to the least of these, you have done to me.

so it's nice when the president knows the text here that motivates us to come to the roosevelt room. >> just to be an irritant though, it is not just easy choices between the poor and corporate jet subsidies. >> no. >> i think this is a drum i've been beating for some time. you've got everybody in washington defending medicare, and social security. badly needed by my mom and by a lot of elderly. but those are middle class entitlements. it is medicare that is constantly slashed and burned. it is home heating assistance to the poor that's slashed and burned. it is not just oil companies and corporate jets. we also have to come to terms with the fact that nobody faces up the middle class entitlements but they'll slash entitlements to the poor. >> there's a progressive case for entitlement reform that who

wants to continue giving money to many, many well-off elderly people rather than means testing, for instance, if we continue on this path of giving indiscriminately giving these entitlements across incomes -- >> and letting them grow. >> -- because of the demographic bulge, you're going to be in a situation where all spending on things like infrastructure and all of these services that help the poor are going to get crowded out. >> medicaid, mike, always gets cut before medicare. always. >> i mean the idea that me or warren buffett or whoever should be drawing a social security check at some point similar to someone who's gone through life as a bus driver or something like that is absurd. but jim, i would like to ask you, does it strike you at all how once we get caught up in these ideological wars over budget battles and debt ceilings and things like that you mentioned your 12-year-old and 8-year-old, that very few people

in washington in politics it seems pause to consider this prospect, something that i've considered several times. i've never known anyone who says, boy, i would like my child to be born poor. i would like my child do some day grow up and go on welfare. but people don't think like that in politics, and yet it's -- you know, it's so obvious. who would want that? >> you know, we get stuck with this notion of "the poor," and we think it is somebody unlike us someplace else. right now, this country is in such a difficult position, it's our neighbor, it's our relative, it's us. we had 5,000 pastors sign a letter last week and say, this is about our congregations and our communities. we had a lutheran pastor on a phone call.

she said, "i was on wic as a single mom for a while. i was struggling. it helped get my kids strong bodies and minds and now i'm a lu lutheran pastor." how do we help our neighbors and make sure we help take care of each other. i think you're right and you've been saying this on your show for a long time, we got to go to where the money is. the big money is not with poor people. so i gave the president last night a scripture, this is isaiah, i think, speaking in an ancient budget debate. it must have been. he says, "woe to you legislators of infamous laws to refuse justice to the unfortunate and cheat the poor among my people of their rights and make minnows their prey and rob the orphan." i thought you could use that when you have these negotiations now. >> a very good line. >> reverend jim wallis, thank you very much. >> thanks for being on, you do a

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i take prescribed medication whenever my symptoms arise and they keep my migraines under control but i'd like to be abundantly clear. my ability to function effectively will not affect my ability to serve as commander in chief. >> there's no question in my mind that michele bachmann's health is in no way an impediment to serving as president. her and i have different

opinions on some issues but that will not be an affect on her campaign. >> so she got a doctor's note. >> do you think there's sexism here? >> i do. apparently a couple of our panelists, they didn't -- >> why do you think so? >> first of all, migraines are just -- i know so many people with migraines. never oncedy say, you can't do your job so you should probably go see a doctor. >> some people are blaming it on high heels. >> oh, gosh. what are you talking about? >> wait a second. it was her son who said that her high heels -- that she claimed that her high heels -- >> what the heck are you talking about? >> that causes -- high heels cause migraines with some people. i know when i wear high heels, my head -- >> i can tell. >> be quiet. >> the original report -- politico confirmed it -- july of last year she missed eight votes apparently because she had to go to a hospital because the

migraines impacted her. that's what the reporter -- >> there are other lawmakers who missed votes for other reasons that are far less riveting. >> i missed eight votes going to a baseball game. >> it is about politics. i said earlier in the show i thought this story was a planted story by one of her rivals to try to take her down. but i will ask you just as a thought experiment -- >> okay. >> -- if joe was running for president and "the new york times" reported that when joe was a congressman a number of his aides said there were times when he was so paralyzed by migraines that they had to shut the office down, he had to go and lie down, turn all the lights off, he missed votes, et cetera, et cetera, would you think that was a bogus story or would you think that was a legitimate area of inquiry? >> i actually think there would be a lot of candidates who live the grueling hell of the campaign trail and then the

presidency with a lot of serious nervous disorders. and sleep problems. >> what's your answer to his question? >> if i heard that joe had migraines, i would not think that that would affect him. >> but if you heard what i just said, if you heard that it was said on repeated occasions he was incapacitated, he could not get up off the couch and go vote -- >> answer the question to the question. if a female candidate was 38 years old and had one kid and wanted to have more and also be president, and therefore the process of having a baby would be quite debilitating at times, would you think that would impact her ability to be president? >> you can't answer a question with a question. >> i want to know what the answer to that is. >> i'll answer your question as soon as you answer mine. >> i have no problem with it. migraines. >> i have no problem with any woman who wants to have babies. >> good. that's the right answer, john heilemann. we'll be right back. [ jerry ] i'm a grandfather, a retired teacher,

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welcome back to "morning joe." back today with what we learned. britney spears is a filthy gas-passing mess. her former bodyguard claims. >> is this thing on? are we on? >> yeah, this is on. >> and we're back. >> why do people write this stuff? >> "poot, i did it again." the murdoch story is 45 pages behind that. what did you learn today, john? >> i learned it is possible you guys were out last night to the meadowlands until 1:30 in the morning and you come here in the morning. >> the boss was there. >> bruce springsteen didn't come out but bono sang "the promised land." >> the shuttle era comes to a